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we will
cross the channel, but we stay in Italy.

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We have our second speaker of the day
with Zeke.

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He's, chief curator responsible for,
the Romans culture.

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Collection at the department.
This antiquity.

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Greg Roman at the from.

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And, well,
over the course of his brilliant career,

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he has established himself, as a leading
specialist of, in Romans culture,

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contributing valuable expertise to both
scholarly research and curatorial fields.

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So the loom, he has played
an essential role in studying

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and documenting the museum's collections,
connecting works,

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whatever works of art

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to their broader
archeological and historical contexts.

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So most recently, he served as curator

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for the prestigious exhibition
of the Colonial Collection at the Louvre,

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bringing the public
bringing to public view

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one of the world's most significant,
collections of ancient Roman sculpture.

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So his career after we all,
the vision had to highlight the artistic

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and historical importance
of these masterpieces, as well as

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the complex history of collecting
and preserving classical antiquities.

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His work is crucial,

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in reexamining
and deepening our understanding

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of the museum's holdings,
particularly through the perspective

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of their excavation
histories and artistic significance.

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So Martin has also been actively involved
in the excavation campaigns in Gardez

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in Italy, where he contributed
both to field research

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and to interpretation and dissemination
of new archeological findings.

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So his engagement in such projects
reflects the ongoing commitment

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not only to preserving antiquity,
but also to producing new knowledge

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through our active collaboration
in archeological field works.

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So, through his dual

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expertise in artistry and archeology,

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and his strong commitment to both museums,
collections and archeological practice,

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Martin's trade secrets perfectly embodies
the dynamic relationship

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between museums and living, archeology
and, restoration.

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That is to say, that lies
at the heart of the discussions today.

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So please
join me in welcoming Martin Betzig.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you very much, Florence, for this
very kind presentation

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and for inviting me to to share with you
today.

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Some thoughts about the,

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one of the numerous archeological projects
of the of the museum.

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The one, on the site of Gabi
in central Italy.

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And, before I start,
I would like to say that

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I was meant to speak today
with our field archeologist.

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Steve Gleason.

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Because, like Christian, I

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very much less talented at him than him.

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I represent the curatorial competence,

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in the in the archeological project
and, the research project in Gabby.

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And the field work is,
either work of Steve, or Steve Gleason,

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and I would have liked to, to
have him with me today.

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So today, the perspective, our,

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research project will be more

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curatorial, questioning the

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significance of excavating a site

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from which the collections
of the museum are, coming from.

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And I think, Christian made a very clear
demonstration,

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earlier today of,
what can be the importance

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of that kind of research of that kind of,

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partnership
with, following countries and institutions

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in order to shed light on the collections
and to, better understand them

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in a very, very complex history. So,

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the, our excavation, in
Gabby is now a 12 years old project

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which has now some maturity
thanks to 11 annual excavation campaigns.

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And in Poland,
an extensive research activity

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conducted on the sculpture collection
kept in the Louvre.

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I would like to make you feel today
I was at two,

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so it was a field research on one side
and museum studies on the other.

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Work together for, reciprocal better
understanding of both

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the archeological
context and the collections

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I found
in the description of this meeting.

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A very interesting phrasing
and my point of view.

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And it was a question
which are the academic, the cultural

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and ethical motivations
through which a museum

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decides to engage in archeology?

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As a matter of fact, in spite

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of the very identity
of the biggest museums which can be seen

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as a special kind of academic institution,

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or at least of academic producer,
the relationship

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between museums and excavation
cannot be taken for granted.

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So which are those academic,

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cultural and ethical motivations?

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My point is that it can be

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all encapsulated in one answer.

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Give back the ancient artifact or artwork.

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It's ancient context.

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It may be worth first to recall that
this situation

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is not specific
to archeological collections.

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It is, in my view, in my opinion,
consistent with the very nature

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of the museum

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and even more broadly to the collection
as a phenomenon whose late in etymology,

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as you know, means together

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to put together, which means ultimately
from somewhere else.

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It is a question
we are sharing with many other fields,

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from Italian medieval
painting to African art collections.

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In my knowledge,
the museum can most of the time

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be described as a secondary context.

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So give back the ancient artifact,
its ancient context.

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But what do we mean by context?

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A setting, of course, for
there is a significant difference

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for sculpture to be seen in a museum

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or in a public building
or in a house here.

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For an example from Berlin, in fact,

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from Perrine in Western Asia minor,
which is,

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encapsulating
all those questions of context.

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So a setting but an ancient context

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is not only made
of material determinations,

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it is also constituted by a vast
spectrum of attitude and actions,

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from elaborated rituals

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involving artifacts
to more simple activities, among

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which is the specialist
of ancient sculpture as I am

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will be most attentive to the gestures

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by which the sculptures were instituted,
or activated as votive offerings,

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as a case of the statue or civic honors.

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Of course.

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One example

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before entering into
in the core of the case of Gabby,

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quite complex about the question of museum
as context.

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This statue that you can see on
the screen was collected

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by the conflict resolution
at the end of the 18th century.

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It was then confiscated
by the revolutionary state,

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as you know, first intended
for a public monument in Marseilles,

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where it was meant to be reshaped,
to be integrated,

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to be an allegory of equality.

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But it was eventually sent to the Louvre,

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where it was integrated
by a modern sculpture.

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As you can see, we know quite well

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by later a lot of,

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writings about his restoration activity
in the in the Louvre,

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according to typological standards

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and through the comparison
with a copy in the Vatican.

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It is first
with the rediscovery of its provenance,

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these two a basilica in the city of Thera

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that state you as an ancient artwork,

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could be envisioned
not only in its architectural setting,

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but as a product in antiquity
of a social political gesture, a a civic.

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Oh, no.

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So, a public distinction

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for a woman of local  lite
named Cairo Palladium.

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This isolated example is characteristic
of the peculiar way time

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can be encompassed in a heritage item.

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I mean folded as this item
does not by nature belongs to one context

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of the other, but to all of them
all together at the same time

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to say it otherwise,
it shows how many thought

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the context of a museum
artifact can be in antiquity.

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It is an architectural setting,
but also the constitution of the object

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at a collective think,
which are the collective significance

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within a community of the society
in modern times.

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It is a series of intricate operations
of material transformation

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and intellectual reception
that do exactly the same thing

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to, to to make its significance
for the community.

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But a new one, of course,
the modern community of the of the museum.

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The sculptures from Gabi,
an ancient city 12km west of Rome,

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now interlude, are a perfect case

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study
for such complex processes of collecting.

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And then, in great need of context
in the many senses of the term.

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This is achieved through first,

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the archeological exploration of the site
itself, the ancient city of Getty.

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Thanks to the archeological mission
laid on the field by Steve Disney.

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But these could not bring anything good
for the understanding of the collection

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without critical approach
of their modern history.

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As we have seen, the artifacts
that form museum collections very seldom

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new, plain and simple translation
from one location to another.

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So extraction is our extraction from the
ancient context as material consequences.

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And this is very clear
in the case of Gabby,

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as I will show you now,

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this is, of course, very true in general

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for the sculpture collection
and erst during the 18th century,

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the archeological site of Gabby
was known as a no.

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It's not a good one.

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It was known as,

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So it was known as a place
where to find sculpture this time,

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which is what the diggers and dealers,

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as it were called in a very important

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publication
a few years back, such as Gavin Hamilton,

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but also the patrons and clients
such as Prince Mark,

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Antonio Borges, they were essentially
looking for sculpture.

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The Scottish dealer,
well authorized to dig on a parcel of land

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which belonged to the Prince in 1792.

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Given that the two thirds of its huge
findings are to be reserved

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in priority to him, to the prince,
so to his patron.

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As a matter of fact,
given the sensational character

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of the finds,
the prince decided to buy it.

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Integrity a decision that gave
as he stated as soon as the very year

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of the excavation
by Thomas Jenkins, its value to the whole.

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Well, it's a phrase in this letter
where Thomas Jenkins is,

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saying to

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Charles Townley, which is a very famous
British collector

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of the end of the of the
of the 18th century.

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East unites
indeed many things that are interesting

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being together would be of no consequence
if separated,

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which is for a merchant of this time
a very archeological mindset.

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I would say, of course, a modest

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18th century archeological mindset.

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So it is, indeed.

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First, thanks to this deal,
that's a security sculpture

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well preserved as an archeological set.

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But to our modern minds,
a very peculiar kind of set.

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It was first the fruit of a selection.

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I was to Gavin Hamilton confessed himself
to one of his best clients,

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the aforementioned Charles Donnelly.

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I will read this very interesting account

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of his found in in Gabi in 1792.

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I cannot help putting pen to paper,
and to give you some account

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of my proceedings at the cover of Gabriel.

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You're my good fortune.

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Begin with the discovery of the.

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To find busts
of Septimius Severus and Geta.

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I next got into the public place,

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ornamented with a portico pedestal
and statues of the deacon

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and also magistrates of the carbone.

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We see inscriptions on the pedestals.

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Inscriptions
are still in Rome, at Villa gazing

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I have found fragments
of at least 200 statues,

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but some mutilated, that
I have only be able to save 22 statues

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that are good and wealthy, with stirring,
besides other curious things

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of different kinds on small statue
heads, etc..

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I have three stages in Armo

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or Imperial that go much beyond
anything of the kind, either to scene

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he's selling, of course,
and it's a product of his digging

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a drapery figure of a woman,
and commonly found

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a statue of Claudius
and one Germanicus in fine preservation.

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A statue of Diana, quite new
and very fine, in particular his head.

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But what you would have coveted
the most is a small bust of Marcus overall

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size of life. The finest extant.

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So a strong process of selection,
with a very specific goal

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that these restoring statues
integrated the fragments

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in order to create complete artifacts.

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It is

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in this regard, and it's,

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one of the reason why it is important

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to excavate ancient,

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ancient digging

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sites from the 18th century
or even before,

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absolutely symptomatic to see that
in the archeological material given

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by excavation on the same spot in 2006,

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by the Superintendence of Special Roma,

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there are a few marble fragments
which I've been able to

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to see and study briefly,
which are very coherent

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with the monumental statuary
now in the Louvre,

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fragments of draperies or accessory.

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We can.

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Even,

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00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.960
try to
to put it on the in the Louvre statues.

246
00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:37.200
And they may very well be fragments

247
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.720
not deemed worthy by Hamilton
and simply left by him, to dig.

248
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:47.760
So once again, the words of Gavin Hamilton
are very revealing.

249
00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:52.360
The earliest fragments are worth
considering only if they can lead to

250
00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:57.560
the recomposition of statues, and indeed,
restoration work was undertaken

251
00:15:57.560 --> 00:16:01.800
as soon as the marble
fragments were taken from the Libyan soil.

252
00:16:02.520 --> 00:16:06.240
As is revealed by this spectacularly
informative archival material

253
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.080
kept among the papers
of the Borghese family in the Vatican.

254
00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:13.640
The goal was clear from the beginning,

255
00:16:13.640 --> 00:16:16.640
as it is as attested sorry

256
00:16:16.680 --> 00:16:19.000
by the same letter by Gavin Hamilton.

257
00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:22.760
The setting of a new context,

258
00:16:22.760 --> 00:16:25.920
Museo Gambino, specifically designed

259
00:16:25.920 --> 00:16:28.920
to host sculptures discovered in Gabby.

260
00:16:29.280 --> 00:16:32.360
All these fine things
go to the principal easy,

261
00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:35.960
who builds a place for the reception
at the villa.

262
00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:36.800
Of course.

263
00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:41.840
The loans show in Rome with the title
of the Museum Museo Gambino.

264
00:16:42.680 --> 00:16:47.120
This is, from our point of view,
a very extraordinary project,

265
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:50.800
a site museum
but miles away from the site itself.

266
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.840
Before it was at the same time
a part of the grandiose Neo-Classical

267
00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:01.040
project of Marco Borghese in a place
of aristocratic self representation,

268
00:17:01.560 --> 00:17:04.120
where the architectural tradition

269
00:17:04.120 --> 00:17:07.640
of the national display waited much.

270
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.480
So you have some projects
that were made from the Museo Pepino,

271
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.480
but they were not,

272
00:17:16.080 --> 00:17:19.840
It did not lead to any concrete
quantization.

273
00:17:19.840 --> 00:17:23.200
It was much more modest in in the end.

274
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:28.920
But you can see that the ambition,
the idea is to reproduce the galleries

275
00:17:29.360 --> 00:17:32.360
in the setting of the sculptures
and in their display

276
00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:35.720
is the galleries
of Roman season and villas.

277
00:17:38.040 --> 00:17:39.520
And so

278
00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:43.600
this project proceeded
from a very specific cultural practice,

279
00:17:43.600 --> 00:17:47.120
which had material esthetical
and programmatic consequences.

280
00:17:47.120 --> 00:17:51.840
Is first is displayed
sculpture to be complete, integrated.

281
00:17:52.600 --> 00:17:56.560
And so they were integrated
with ethereal genius material

282
00:17:56.560 --> 00:18:00.360
from Gabby
or not from Gabby, antique or not antique.

283
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.720
So let's examine, examine
a few good causes

284
00:18:03.800 --> 00:18:06.800
documented through the book is the achive.

285
00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:09.000
First, there are a few statues

286
00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:12.520
that were integrated thanks to sculpture
material found in Gabby.

287
00:18:12.800 --> 00:18:15.920
It is exemplified by this
very interesting statue of a Julia.

288
00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.000
Collodion prints or tempera,
which was given

289
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:22.440
very plausibly
thanks to the typological parallel

290
00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:26.880
to the two well-preserved statues
of Germanicus enclosures.

291
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.560
We will see them later the forehead,

292
00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:34.600
so you can see the limits of the antique
fragments here.

293
00:18:34.600 --> 00:18:37.800
So this state of conservation
of preservation is very clear.

294
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.960
So it's only the face we spot of the ad
and the white side of the head,

295
00:18:44.320 --> 00:18:47.560
the forehead of a portrait of Jesus,
the head. No.

296
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.640
So we have chosen
Caesar, one of Germanicus sons,

297
00:18:51.360 --> 00:18:53.600
which was called Nero

298
00:18:53.600 --> 00:18:58.680
at the time of the restoration,
and found was is attested

299
00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.560
by the publication of Visconti in 1797

300
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:05.600
on the site,

301
00:19:05.600 --> 00:19:07.640
on the site to during the,

302
00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.600
the excavation of of Getty.

303
00:19:10.600 --> 00:19:13.800
This complex restoration work,
which involved a certain

304
00:19:13.800 --> 00:19:16.800
degree of stylistic
skill, was given to one of

305
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.920
the goodwill tours of the time
Camillo purchased,

306
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:24.840
and nothing and shoes, of course,
that the head goes truly with these body.

307
00:19:25.560 --> 00:19:28.160
It was nevertheless restored as such.

308
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.200
Another kind of assemblage is exemplified

309
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.200
by his very fine statue in armor

310
00:19:35.120 --> 00:19:39.200
of very fine quality,
which was provided to the,

311
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.560
so he stylistically assigned
to the Dominik Hero, which was restored

312
00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:48.720
with the portrait head of Trajan,
also of very fine quality itself,

313
00:19:49.320 --> 00:19:52.000
which was provided
to the restorer Agostino

314
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.280
Pena, the famous sculptor
of the neoclassical world,

315
00:19:56.080 --> 00:19:59.880
by giving a Hamilton himself
from his personal collection.

316
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.320
This means that there was no come
to vindication,

317
00:20:03.320 --> 00:20:07.360
as this time to the use of ethical genius
material for the sculptures.

318
00:20:07.360 --> 00:20:08.640
Restoration.

319
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.960
As a matter of fact, it is very clear
that this operation is motivated by

320
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.960
the wish to get and statically emoji news

321
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.960
collection, so no consideration about it.

322
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.240
Antiquity could at a time
be taken into account.

323
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:29.560
This is due, of course,
to the neo classical vision of an artwork,

324
00:20:29.560 --> 00:20:33.240
but this is another story
to the modern archeologist,

325
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:36.360
this is only a very serious challenge.

326
00:20:36.360 --> 00:20:40.400
You can add to the set of practices
the use of modern copies of ancient

327
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:41.640
portraits.

328
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.760
So you have the archival
source and on the screen.

329
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.240
Modern copies of ancient

330
00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.720
portraits already known and displayed
in Roman collections

331
00:20:53.080 --> 00:20:56.280
to achieve the completeness
of a female statue,

332
00:20:56.280 --> 00:20:59.320
probably from the Thule Euclidean group,

333
00:20:59.320 --> 00:21:04.680
already
mentioned, a reduced copy was made to see

334
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.680
said no on the statue in the Louvre,

335
00:21:07.800 --> 00:21:10.800
which is a very

336
00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:15.080
faithful copy
of a colossal head of Platina,

337
00:21:15.800 --> 00:21:20.560
which was in the Mattei collection
in Rome, and now in the Sala

338
00:21:20.600 --> 00:21:23.600
rotunda of the Museo Clemente. You.

339
00:21:24.120 --> 00:21:27.360
This could seem to be a somewhat
somehow, or the choice,

340
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:31.120
given that there were
some female portraits available in Gabby,

341
00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:34.120
so why not choose something
from the site? It.

342
00:21:34.320 --> 00:21:37.560
It is, however, contained
without another requirement

343
00:21:37.840 --> 00:21:40.840
of this extensive restoration project,

344
00:21:41.040 --> 00:21:44.040
because whoever conceived this wanted
not only to produce

345
00:21:44.040 --> 00:21:48.040
a good looking display, but was concerned
with the idea that this gallery,

346
00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.200
to stage a narrative,
of course, of Roman literary history.

347
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.600
It bears the status,
according to an intellectual

348
00:21:55.600 --> 00:21:59.680
representation of ancient portraits
as historical testimonies,

349
00:22:00.280 --> 00:22:04.160
which are to be read
through the lens of literary knowledge.

350
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:08.520
This is why a figure of Platina
as to which stage up to pair,

351
00:22:08.520 --> 00:22:13.400
which is also totally invented
counterpart, which is Trajan

352
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:15.120
dismantled.

353
00:22:15.120 --> 00:22:20.520
An intellectual process is also striking
in the case of two nude statues

354
00:22:20.520 --> 00:22:25.920
that are exact replicas
of the same prototypes of the same model

355
00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.080
and were thrown together, one was restored

356
00:22:29.080 --> 00:22:32.080
with a head of Adrian on the left,

357
00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:36.600
sold by the sculptor Carlo Albertini

358
00:22:37.080 --> 00:22:40.360
to the restorer Ferdinando Lisandro.

359
00:22:40.360 --> 00:22:42.360
On the other.

360
00:22:42.360 --> 00:22:45.360
Thanks to the selling.

361
00:22:46.840 --> 00:22:48.280
I don't touch the,

362
00:22:48.280 --> 00:22:51.800
Sorry, I don't have the source,
thanks to the selling.

363
00:22:52.280 --> 00:22:55.840
By giving Hamilton himself of this

364
00:22:56.280 --> 00:22:59.880
ad of a youth
from the end of the second century AD,

365
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.000
which was named at the time alias Caesar.

366
00:23:04.360 --> 00:23:09.320
So the Emperor and its unfortunate
successor therefore artificially paired

367
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.920
in what appears to be
a very narrative composition.

368
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:18.720
So it is clear that to give back its
ancient context to the ancient artifact

369
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:23.360
can only be achieved through a clear
understanding of this modern reception.

370
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:28.560
First, this led to, and this leads,
sorry to,

371
00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:33.600
some kind of intellectual deconstruction
whose goal is not,

372
00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:37.680
of course, to leave them as scattered
fragments to take back to the integration.

373
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.320
It would be absolutely stupid.

374
00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:44.520
But to reestablish throughout
historical study some pertinent groups.

375
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:48.880
To take only one example,
the close stylistic examination

376
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.240
led to the conclusion
that the traditionally much restrained

377
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:57.120
clothing group, those two stages world
in fact much more extensive,

378
00:23:57.120 --> 00:24:00.720
and that its creation
was at the time of its installation

379
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.480
in Gabi, given to two
distinct groups of artists one

380
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.520
very brilliant,
the other more mundane, disappears

381
00:24:08.760 --> 00:24:13.440
when we compare status securely assigned
to the clothing group of four traits,

382
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.280
such as the state youth of Claudius
and his brother Germanicus,

383
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.400
the first
very ordinary in the carry carving.

384
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:26.000
So each of the drapery is a second,
much more colorful and classical.

385
00:24:26.520 --> 00:24:31.680
But this exercise can lead
to new identifications, such as the Latina

386
00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:34.720
already mentioned, whose titular

387
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.800
type is a Julio Claudia,
an imperial creation,

388
00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:41.920
and the extraordinary statue
of an absolutely fantastic

389
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:46.200
Greek Sabina, made up from an antique
torso excavated in Gaby,

390
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.280
which is a brilliant piece of sculpture
from the closing times.

391
00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:51.240
Absolutely.

392
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:54.240
And an ancient head of the Empress.

393
00:24:54.600 --> 00:24:58.120
This of the of the sovereign already in
the book is a collection.

394
00:24:58.760 --> 00:25:02.240
It can be assigned
thanks to its rich drapery

395
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.320
and peculiar iconography,
to the same clothing group,

396
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:11.600
as well as two toga statues of youth, one
still a child with a bulla,

397
00:25:11.600 --> 00:25:15.360
the old, the other
a little older, restored as Commodus.

398
00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:18.040
This stylistic study.

399
00:25:18.040 --> 00:25:22.200
So there is a material study,
historical reception of the sculptures

400
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.040
and the stylistic study
has to be conducted in spite

401
00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:29.160
of the material state of the sculptures,

402
00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:32.000
which also is also subject of interest,

403
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.240
but more from the modern times
historical perspective,

404
00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:40.400
and that is through
these intellectual operations

405
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:44.760
that we can catch up with
the archeological research on the site,

406
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:49.720
which is in fact a complementary approach
of the same problem,

407
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.120
the archeology that, sorry,
the archeological site of Gabi

408
00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:57.120
was preserved
after antiquity by the ending

409
00:25:57.120 --> 00:26:00.320
of human settlement after late antiquity.

410
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.600
So it's a very interesting site.

411
00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:05.280
For this reason, little.

412
00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:08.040
It's a bit like vulture, of course.

413
00:26:08.040 --> 00:26:12.120
The slopes of the former Castilian lake

414
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.360
Castilian quarter

415
00:26:15.360 --> 00:26:18.360
were used as agricultural lands

416
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.720
and were then preserved
for archeological research.

417
00:26:22.280 --> 00:26:27.080
The excavations on the site
began began sorry in 2013,

418
00:26:27.320 --> 00:26:30.880
in collaboration
first with the Superintendence at Albania.

419
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:31.440
Archeology.

420
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:37.440
At the Lazio, then the superintendence US
with charity Roma and no.

421
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:38.400
The park work.

422
00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:42.120
It got the

423
00:26:42.120 --> 00:26:45.840
at a so very complex institutional

424
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:50.440
framework, at a very strategic spot

425
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:55.240
of the ancient urban fabric
between the two

426
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:59.680
the public spaces of great prominence
known previously

427
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:04.360
from previous excavations,
the sanctuary of Juno

428
00:27:04.360 --> 00:27:07.360
Catena in the North

429
00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:11.560
Monument lies
in the middle of the second century BC,

430
00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:15.760
and the Thuram of the ancient city,
which is

431
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.000
the very spot digged first

432
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.000
by giving Hamilton
at the end of the 18th century.

433
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:28.080
So the Louvre excavation is here, and here

434
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:31.680
we are moving forward to the to the forum

435
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.680
progressively.

436
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:38.240
That is to say, in a sector
which is not only very close

437
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.240
to the original fine
spot of the sculptures,

438
00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:44.640
but also representative
of the urban development

439
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.440
of the city during the late Republic
and early interim period.

440
00:27:49.040 --> 00:27:51.840
11 excavation campaigns, as I said,

441
00:27:51.840 --> 00:27:55.280
were laid, which extended
greatly our knowledge

442
00:27:55.280 --> 00:27:58.680
of the architectural development
of the South and part of the sanctuary

443
00:27:59.080 --> 00:28:02.360
of the road system
and of the domestic spaces.

444
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.600
It is so important to state that one
campaign was also devoted

445
00:28:06.600 --> 00:28:10.520
to the archeological
recording of the remains of the forum,

446
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.480
which were newly excavated in 2006

447
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.400
by the superintendence at the Roma,

448
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:21.360
but were not properly published.

449
00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:24.200
The main results of the excavation,
which are

450
00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:28.520
of course led by Steve Gleason,
as I said, lies in the better

451
00:28:28.760 --> 00:28:31.800
understanding
of the monumental ization dynamics

452
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:34.960
of Gaby's European center
during the late Republic.

453
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:40.320
The ludi is exactly situated
at the crossing of two streets

454
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.160
Run runnings in the north

455
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:48.560
south direction,
reaching the forum and the other

456
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:51.920
in on the east west direction,

457
00:28:52.120 --> 00:28:56.080
running in the exact thousand limit

458
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.280
of the great, important sanctuary of Juno.

459
00:29:00.360 --> 00:29:02.400
Abena.

460
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:05.920
So you have to complex

461
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.360
in the excavations a theater part

462
00:29:09.360 --> 00:29:13.240
the theater of the sanctuary
and an important,

463
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.640
domus which was excavated,

464
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:23.560
and very interesting in the dynamics
of the occupation of the city.

465
00:29:27.520 --> 00:29:31.120
So the excavation of the thousand part.

466
00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:33.080
Sorry,

467
00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:36.080
this excavation of these thousand part.

468
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:39.120
Revealed

469
00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:43.000
the remains of a domus built
during the second quarter of the third

470
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:46.920
century BC and occupied up
to the end of the second century AD.

471
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.200
Interestingly,
we can notice that the installation

472
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:55.280
of this housing block respects
a European grid,

473
00:29:55.560 --> 00:29:58.560
which is slightly different
from the latter one.

474
00:30:00.120 --> 00:30:01.360
Whose layout?

475
00:30:01.360 --> 00:30:04.880
So you can see that there was no alignment
of the facade

476
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:07.880
of the domus under one of the sanctuary,

477
00:30:08.840 --> 00:30:12.480
whose layout can be fixed
in the beginning of the second century BC,

478
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.680
responding to a major monumental ization

479
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.200
of this sanctuary,
the main sanctuary of the Civic Center,

480
00:30:20.360 --> 00:30:24.120
situated immediately
across the east west street

481
00:30:24.760 --> 00:30:28.080
in the northern part of the moat,
is this monumental complex,

482
00:30:29.280 --> 00:30:30.960
well studied by the excavation

483
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:34.680
laid by the Spanish School of Architecture
during the 70s.

484
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:38.040
So south and one is now well known.

485
00:30:38.040 --> 00:30:41.040
Thanks to the Louvre
archeological mission.

486
00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:45.200
Immediately to the north of the street,
excavations of uncovered

487
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:49.760
the remains of a monumental architecture
interpreted as the west of a stage.

488
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:54.600
The rests of a stage building
bounded by the sanctuary's enclosure

489
00:30:54.600 --> 00:30:58.400
wall, excavation of the back
field from the stage building

490
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.400
as enabled today to first architect
to all phase of this complex

491
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.400
to the third quarter
of the second century BC.

492
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.880
In the eastern part, foundation piers.

493
00:31:09.760 --> 00:31:12.760
This part

494
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:15.960
foundation piers testified the existence

495
00:31:16.800 --> 00:31:20.640
of a portico
flanking the theater on the east,

496
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:24.600
overlooking the facade,
and probably the choir.

497
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.800
At this time
the theater was probably equipped

498
00:31:27.800 --> 00:31:33.320
with a temporary wooden stage building,
as is very customary in Republican Rome.

499
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:36.800
To the west, a small paved

500
00:31:36.800 --> 00:31:41.600
esplanade accessible
from the street serves a staircase

501
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.080
leading to
the Octavius tiers was a large scale, so

502
00:31:48.600 --> 00:31:49.360
it was a large scale

503
00:31:49.360 --> 00:31:52.640
retaining wall has been uncovered,
so the West

504
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:55.600
opens its Emmy cycle.

505
00:31:55.600 --> 00:32:00.880
A powerful L-shaped side
footing with uncovered

506
00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:04.440
here.

507
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.600
We begin. The.

508
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:11.320
These are the remains

509
00:32:11.320 --> 00:32:14.640
of a rectilinear, skinny thrones,
which was laid

510
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:18.360
after the opus came in thick masonry
that followed the portico.

511
00:32:18.840 --> 00:32:20.800
The theater was now equipped.

512
00:32:20.800 --> 00:32:24.120
That means that the theater
was now equipped with a solid stage

513
00:32:24.120 --> 00:32:27.120
building, what we call in Latin.

514
00:32:27.560 --> 00:32:29.560
Proscenium,

515
00:32:29.560 --> 00:32:31.840
adorned with a colonnade.

516
00:32:31.840 --> 00:32:36.120
This phase started in the first half
of the third century BC,

517
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:40.440
a chronology which is based
on the architectural typology

518
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:44.880
and on the discovery of a fragmentary
building dedication

519
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:48.320
coming from the retaining
wall of the caveat.

520
00:32:48.520 --> 00:32:51.520
So this part.

521
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:55.520
The anonymous wall.

522
00:32:55.520 --> 00:32:58.560
This inscription
finds parallels in monumental epigraphy

523
00:32:58.560 --> 00:33:03.360
from the 18th to the 70s BC,
and will be published soon,

524
00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:07.480
I hope, by assuring be an ancient envelope
and Steve Gleason himself

525
00:33:07.800 --> 00:33:11.160
as a milestone for the knowledge
of the chronology of the theater,

526
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.760
the monumental decoration

527
00:33:14.760 --> 00:33:18.960
was completed during the
the the reign of Augustus,

528
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.520
with the skin of a new type
consisting in a two storey columnar

529
00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:27.920
facade, of which scattered architectural
Baroque blocks were found,

530
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.960
so you can see a few of the tough
and marble

531
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:37.440
decoration of this, of this facade,
which is of course, very interesting

532
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:41.080
because we are at the very beginning
of this kind of monumental

533
00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:44.480
architecture
of the architectural device in the world.

534
00:33:44.560 --> 00:33:50.160
Theaters finally study campaign
devoted to the remains of the forum was,

535
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.600
as anyone can imagine, very instructive
for the re contextualization

536
00:33:54.600 --> 00:33:58.560
of the sculptures it offered
as the possibility to better apprehend

537
00:33:58.560 --> 00:34:03.280
the architectural phases of this complex
within the urban fabric of Gaby,

538
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:07.520
if it showed that the space was crowded,
which takes you away.

539
00:34:07.520 --> 00:34:11.440
Display features such as bases for the,

540
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:14.040
for seated

541
00:34:14.040 --> 00:34:17.040
state uses that are here and here.

542
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:21.760
This work also led us to think better,

543
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:26.280
a fact that was already stated by the 2006
excavation campaign.

544
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.520
The diachronic and even very tortuous

545
00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:33.040
character of the monumental ization
process of this space.

546
00:34:33.640 --> 00:34:34.240
Especially.

547
00:34:34.240 --> 00:34:37.240
It's a discovery
made by Steve during this,

548
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.440
during this exploration,

549
00:34:40.520 --> 00:34:45.240
it showed without a doubt
that the turf Bank was first

550
00:34:45.240 --> 00:34:48.800
excavated to set up a monumental civil

551
00:34:49.040 --> 00:34:52.040
civic basilica.

552
00:34:52.680 --> 00:34:55.680
In the first phase of the forum,

553
00:34:56.720 --> 00:35:01.440
whose colonnade remains partially visible
at the back of the structures

554
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.640
in the map of the 2006 excavations,
you can see this

555
00:35:06.120 --> 00:35:09.600
colonnade,
which has absolutely no interest

556
00:35:09.600 --> 00:35:14.640
architectural pertinence
because every space is closed

557
00:35:14.640 --> 00:35:18.720
by those rooms, also here by the wall
and here by satisfying.

558
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:22.200
So, so is no explanation

559
00:35:22.200 --> 00:35:25.200
for the presence of this colonnade,
of which Visconti,

560
00:35:25.200 --> 00:35:29.920
in the end of the 18th century,
made of the facade of a pro-style temple.

561
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.200
So a lot of misinformation from Visconti.

562
00:35:33.200 --> 00:35:38.520
But I think it's linked to the,
very peculiar process of digging,

563
00:35:38.720 --> 00:35:42.320
as it were, not digging the, of course,
the old place, or took it, as it

564
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:47.280
were, digging, extracting sculptures
and then, covering a covering the field.

565
00:35:48.240 --> 00:35:49.200
So the

566
00:35:49.200 --> 00:35:53.000
building of the basilica can be dated
from scattered architecture remains

567
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.760
in the course of the first century BC,
probably at the same time

568
00:35:56.760 --> 00:36:00.120
zones in monumental ization
of the area of the theater.

569
00:36:00.720 --> 00:36:04.640
The precise study of visible
architecture remains reveals

570
00:36:04.640 --> 00:36:08.840
that the rooms
that were in the last monumental phase.

571
00:36:09.080 --> 00:36:12.920
So in this state,
which is the one we know from

572
00:36:13.640 --> 00:36:16.640
the remains themselves,

573
00:36:16.680 --> 00:36:19.080
so important
for the structure of this complex,

574
00:36:19.080 --> 00:36:22.080
well built inside the structure

575
00:36:22.240 --> 00:36:25.240
of the of the basilica itself.

576
00:36:26.640 --> 00:36:30.240
We using some of some of its columns.

577
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:33.760
As a matter of fact,
this basilica had not been seen

578
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:37.160
in the 18th century,
nor the beginning of the 21st.

579
00:36:37.160 --> 00:36:40.320
And it allows us to understand

580
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:44.120
better the dynamics of
of this architectural space.

581
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.040
It was first transformed

582
00:36:47.040 --> 00:36:50.040
at the middle of the first century A.D.,

583
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.440
when a monumental room

584
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.440
with a podium for statuary display

585
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.120
was built in its very center.

586
00:37:00.120 --> 00:37:05.760
No doubt that this new space has to be
linked with a benefaction benefaction.

587
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.520
So we recorded in a fragmentary decree.

588
00:37:08.520 --> 00:37:13.800
So you have the photogrammetry of the room
on the, on the, on the screen.

589
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:17.280
Very interesting for the stage or display,
of course,

590
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:23.240
recorded in a fragmentary decree
copied in the end of the 17th century

591
00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:27.760
and precisely dated in the years
between 51 and 54 A.D..

592
00:37:29.160 --> 00:37:33.400
First,
we can know that this inscription was read

593
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.760
and conscripted in the distant Primitivo,

594
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:40.080
which is a few, center of meters,

595
00:37:41.160 --> 00:37:44.160
away from the forum. So,

596
00:37:44.200 --> 00:37:49.040
thanks to, the work,
the research work was that was conducted

597
00:37:49.040 --> 00:37:53.480
especially by myself
in the epigraphy, coal

598
00:37:53.520 --> 00:37:57.000
and stone material
from the excavations of the forum,

599
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:01.680
the Italian excavation of the forum,
and of this some primo excavation.

600
00:38:02.520 --> 00:38:07.280
We can assert now that much of the stone
material

601
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:11.240
from this late antique church
come from the forum.

602
00:38:11.240 --> 00:38:11.920
So you have often

603
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:13.600
on the screen the

604
00:38:13.600 --> 00:38:18.960
forum is here
and the son Primitivo Church is here.

605
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.960
So it's a few.

606
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:23.840
It's a short distance,

607
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:28.080
but which is very interesting,
is that we are seeing the,

608
00:38:29.160 --> 00:38:32.160
were found in the forum and also

609
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:37.200
in the excavation in some primitive
or so we can understand

610
00:38:37.200 --> 00:38:40.520
the dynamics of
we use in late antiquity and

611
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.440
for example, we can,

612
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:47.560
we can, we can, knowledge

613
00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:51.120
that the this decree is very important
decree,

614
00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:54.800
is probably from the, from the foreign

615
00:38:55.120 --> 00:38:58.160
and this is of direct interest for the
Louvre school to have a collection.

616
00:38:58.800 --> 00:38:59.280
Indeed.

617
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:03.680
This decree probably taken on the forum
during late antiquity,

618
00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:07.080
let us know about the edification
of a room

619
00:39:07.200 --> 00:39:10.200
adorned with images.

620
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:15.200
So we adorned with images of some members
of the clothing family.

621
00:39:15.200 --> 00:39:17.800
Claudius, the reigning emperor Drusus.

622
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:20.880
He held his father, son of Livia

623
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:22.880
Germanicus is

624
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:26.040
brother, and Drusus
Caesar, the son of the latter.

625
00:39:26.680 --> 00:39:29.080
Britannicus, son of Claudius Agrippina

626
00:39:29.080 --> 00:39:32.480
the Elder, wife of Germanicus
and grandmother of near.

627
00:39:34.120 --> 00:39:38.160
Finally Claudia Antonia,
the daughter of the reigning emperor,

628
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:41.720
and it is also very probable
that Nero himself and his mother,

629
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.880
of course, Agrippina
the Younger, were also present.

630
00:39:45.120 --> 00:39:49.400
So this inscription is drawing the picture
of a highly typical clothing

631
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.400
statuary group of the kind we know,

632
00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:55.440
we know elsewhere in Italy at this time.

633
00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:00.280
And it is striking that the central room
built inside the nave of the basilica

634
00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:05.880
at the same time shows a typical features
of contemporary statuary rooms,

635
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:09.840
the comparison with the Imperial state,
or a group of

636
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:14.640
nono in Roman
Dalmatia is absolutely striking.

637
00:40:15.200 --> 00:40:18.720
So archeological research on the site

638
00:40:19.080 --> 00:40:22.680
where we have found
some of the most relevant artworks

639
00:40:22.680 --> 00:40:24.720
kept in the museum's collection,
of course,

640
00:40:24.720 --> 00:40:28.400
and a strong opportunity,
I think, to link the wide

641
00:40:28.560 --> 00:40:31.560
long term perspective of human

642
00:40:31.600 --> 00:40:34.320
history on this, on the site itself

643
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.320
and the highly detailed knowledge

644
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.440
on context, individual commissioned

645
00:40:40.560 --> 00:40:43.960
and artistic choices, as well as reuse.

646
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:44.640
For example.

647
00:40:45.640 --> 00:40:48.640
So to conclude the museum interest,

648
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.960
the museum's interest
then beyond and reaching

649
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.960
the knowledge of an ancient city
which is always good,

650
00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:58.600
is to get the ability
through this understanding

651
00:40:58.600 --> 00:41:01.680
to produce a new narrative
on its collection.

652
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.080
Indeed, after a short display of 15 years

653
00:41:06.080 --> 00:41:09.080
in the aforementioned Museo Gavino,

654
00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:12.720
the sculptures were both by Napoleon
for the Louvre

655
00:41:14.080 --> 00:41:18.240
here in Paris,
their anachronistic state of preservation

656
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:24.080
made them absolutely unsuitable for any
archeological display that were melted.

657
00:41:24.080 --> 00:41:27.840
With the rich sculpture collection of the
Napoleonic and post Napoleonic Museum,

658
00:41:29.080 --> 00:41:32.080
the current, current
archeological research

659
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:35.720
offers the possibility
to think about a new museum display

660
00:41:36.160 --> 00:41:40.120
more sensitive to its character
of archeological ensemble.

661
00:41:41.040 --> 00:41:44.040
This is the cultural motivation.

662
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:47.920
The academic one is quite clear
from what was said during this talk.

663
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:48.400
I think,

664
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:52.400
but ethical one is also striking.

665
00:41:52.720 --> 00:41:55.720
With the acquisition of the Borges's

666
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.000
marbles in 1906

667
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:04.080
came to France not only the sculptors,
but also the responsibility to study,

668
00:42:04.080 --> 00:42:08.400
to preserve and to display such remarkable
testimonies of the ancient world.

669
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.480
And I think only knowledge,
and the more knowledge

670
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:17.640
we can get about a context, the best can
allow us to accomplish such a duty.

671
00:42:17.640 --> 00:42:20.640
I thank you for your attention.

672
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:28.800
Thank you so much for this, recent,

673
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:30.640
presentation.

674
00:42:30.640 --> 00:42:36.600
And, it's, it's really clear with the
the last slide, as you, you know,

675
00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:41.120
but together that all the pieces
of the very huge puzzle,

676
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:44.320
it's a like a mix and match, game.

677
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:46.640
You on the side scale.

678
00:42:46.640 --> 00:42:49.080
That's that's really impressive.

679
00:42:49.080 --> 00:42:52.080
And, it does really make sense.

680
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:57.440
I think with, with this,
final proposition, you you you you you,

681
00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:00.960
you compare with, your Gabay

682
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:04.320
situation and, well, I let the floor.

683
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:08.320
Maybe you have some,
some questions, for Marta.

684
00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:13.440
We will have, ten more.

685
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:16.080
Ten minutes more. You have one.

686
00:43:16.080 --> 00:43:19.080
I will give you a mic.

687
00:43:29.600 --> 00:43:30.360
No. Thank you,

688
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.360
Marta, for your, your presentation.

689
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:36.680
And also the way that you presented that

690
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:41.400
it's, negative collaboration
with a lot of different actors

691
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:45.960
from from from from, yes,
civil institution.

692
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.000
So it's important to to say that,

693
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:53.960
I would just wanted to focus

694
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:57.880
on the last thing that you said about this

695
00:43:58.080 --> 00:44:03.440
main issue about learning to the
the question of de restoration.

696
00:44:03.560 --> 00:44:06.560
You know, now

697
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:08.000
in our museums,

698
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:11.000
it's something that we can also
thank for the

699
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:14.680
for the vases,
I mean, the archeological state of,

700
00:44:15.080 --> 00:44:20.160
objects are not sometimes well represented
in our, in our collection.

701
00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:23.520
And so in order to approach

702
00:44:23.520 --> 00:44:26.760
by field work for such a logical state,

703
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:29.480
what,

704
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:31.760
do you think the possibilities are now?

705
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:34.960
We have in order to propose
to the audience

706
00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:37.880
several.

707
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.480
Several views.

708
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:41.600
Different?

709
00:44:41.600 --> 00:44:44.080
Yes. Different proposition.

710
00:44:44.080 --> 00:44:48.720
On the on the display about
the different states of space objects.

711
00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:51.800
That's social biography.

712
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:54.800
Towards time.

713
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.920
I think it's a very important question to

714
00:44:59.640 --> 00:45:01.720
to end with the question.

715
00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:04.560
The matter of the

716
00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:07.120
history, of one artwork

717
00:45:07.120 --> 00:45:10.120
and its richness in,

718
00:45:11.120 --> 00:45:13.320
diachronic.

719
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:17.360
What first prompted the
the excavation of the roof?

720
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.000
And Gabby was, a request
by the superintendence,

721
00:45:21.200 --> 00:45:25.160
to get, few 3D models of the sculptures

722
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:29.040
to put them
on a reconstruction of the site

723
00:45:29.040 --> 00:45:32.520
or even on the site itself through 3D
printing.

724
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:34.680
Thought I don't know what.

725
00:45:34.680 --> 00:45:37.080
And then the dialog

726
00:45:37.080 --> 00:45:41.280
was immediately open
because we had to say, be careful.

727
00:45:41.560 --> 00:45:43.560
Of course, the scope,
since we are in the Louvre,

728
00:45:43.560 --> 00:45:46.320
not these characters
found by Governor Hamilton.

729
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:46.640
They are

730
00:45:47.640 --> 00:45:48.240
result of a

731
00:45:48.240 --> 00:45:51.280
complex process of reception,
the material transformation,

732
00:45:51.640 --> 00:45:56.880
and we have to understand better
both sides where do they come from?

733
00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.480
So the forum and what

734
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:04.840
in the book
collection was the dynamics of,

735
00:46:05.040 --> 00:46:08.160
transformation for very specific uses.

736
00:46:08.520 --> 00:46:10.880
So I think,

737
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:13.920
we have no possibility to,

738
00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:18.200
through mobilization
of the history of an object

739
00:46:18.520 --> 00:46:21.520
to make these,

740
00:46:22.720 --> 00:46:24.400
understandable for the public.

741
00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:26.400
Of course, when you,

742
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:31.840
I am always confronted to this problem
in the museum display

743
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:36.040
when you have to state you with a body
from the,

744
00:46:37.080 --> 00:46:41.280
mid fifth century
AD ahead of the end of the second century,

745
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:46.680
and arms and legs and a spear
from the end of the 18th century.

746
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:48.800
How can you build a narrative in that?

747
00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:54.480
And if you if you go on the collection
database of the Louvre collection,

748
00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:58.800
it's a very complex thing to handle in a

749
00:46:59.640 --> 00:47:03.880
in the presentation of data,
you have three dates for one object.

750
00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:07.720
So maybe with the development of,

751
00:47:10.040 --> 00:47:13.920
tools for visualization of data.

752
00:47:14.160 --> 00:47:18.240
I don't know about digital twins
or something like that.

753
00:47:18.640 --> 00:47:21.640
We may be able to

754
00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:26.080
make feel to the to to our visitors,

755
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.760
and curious people in general, this,

756
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:35.040
this richness of historical state
and material state.

757
00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:38.400
But it's not easy

758
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.720
because you have to be informed
about this history.

759
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.840
You have to be,

760
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:48.560
have an expertise on

761
00:47:48.560 --> 00:47:51.720
looking at the materiality of the objects.

762
00:47:52.200 --> 00:47:57.120
You need for me to see what is modern,
what is ancient.

763
00:47:57.160 --> 00:48:00.120
It's certainly.

764
00:48:00.120 --> 00:48:02.880
In day I do I do that every day.

765
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:05.640
But for a lot of people
it's very difficult.

766
00:48:05.640 --> 00:48:08.680
And I think for the phases
I would be enabled to see that

767
00:48:08.680 --> 00:48:12.240
and you and others can, can do that.

768
00:48:12.240 --> 00:48:15.160
Very. Yeah. And on a daily basis,

769
00:48:17.040 --> 00:48:19.680
so it requires

770
00:48:19.680 --> 00:48:22.680
a patient approach and,

771
00:48:24.120 --> 00:48:26.480
I think the numerical,

772
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:31.080
possibilities of the digital possibilities
are very interesting in this.

773
00:48:31.600 --> 00:48:35.880
And it, it could be something
to escape the dilemma

774
00:48:36.160 --> 00:48:40.640
of keeping the artwork in its state
integrated.

775
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.000
In the 1817, I don't know.

776
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.280
And pulling away the,

777
00:48:48.600 --> 00:48:53.040
the integrations
which has been done in the 20th century

778
00:48:53.560 --> 00:48:56.560
very frequently, for example,
on the, on the, on the sculptures,

779
00:48:57.120 --> 00:48:58.680
which is a very complex debate.

780
00:48:58.680 --> 00:49:03.120
I think we should not be dogmatic
about that.

781
00:49:04.160 --> 00:49:07.160
Of course, sometimes when you have,

782
00:49:07.240 --> 00:49:10.240
very fine classical Greek Athenian head

783
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:13.720
from a very famous monument,
I won't give the name,

784
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:16.520
the Parthenon.

785
00:49:16.520 --> 00:49:19.440
And you have a nose, which is modern.

786
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:23.040
You get you gained a lot to pull away

787
00:49:23.080 --> 00:49:26.080
this nose for the esthetical
apprehension of the piece.

788
00:49:26.640 --> 00:49:29.000
But when you have a restoration,

789
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.000
like the ones from from Gabby, from the,

790
00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:36.400
Milton excavations and,
which are well documented in the archival,

791
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:39.040
material

792
00:49:39.040 --> 00:49:44.160
which have, historical significance
for the 80s, 18th century, for the taste,

793
00:49:44.160 --> 00:49:47.160
for the history of the intellectual,

794
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:50.320
reception of antiquity.

795
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:53.440
I think from the curatorial perspective,

796
00:49:53.520 --> 00:49:57.360
you should be very careful about, making,

797
00:49:58.720 --> 00:50:01.720
quick moves about that. So.

798
00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:05.160
And it's the same for vases.

799
00:50:05.160 --> 00:50:08.160
I think if you have a euphonious krater

800
00:50:08.520 --> 00:50:11.080
with awful 18th century

801
00:50:11.080 --> 00:50:14.080
or 19th century restoration,

802
00:50:14.160 --> 00:50:17.160
you can ask yourself,
what do I want to see?

803
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:20.760
And because, of course,

804
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:22.440
an ancient,

805
00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:25.440
I mean, modern, but ancient was duration.

806
00:50:25.720 --> 00:50:28.040
It's always, esthetical.

807
00:50:28.040 --> 00:50:29.640
Impact

808
00:50:29.640 --> 00:50:32.640
and knows the modern knows it can change

809
00:50:33.640 --> 00:50:36.640
completely the aspect of a of a statue.

810
00:50:36.720 --> 00:50:39.560
So this is the looking of statue.

811
00:50:39.560 --> 00:50:44.040
So you can have again to put it away.

812
00:50:45.600 --> 00:50:48.600
But it has to be case by case.

813
00:50:48.600 --> 00:50:49.920
Me, I totally agree.

814
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:54.560
Indeed, for the thesis it's, it's
the same, but for assemblages of bronzes.

815
00:50:54.560 --> 00:50:57.960
Also for several several of the,

816
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.200
nature of objects that say

817
00:51:01.200 --> 00:51:04.280
there is also the one of the answers
could be

818
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:06.480
because for sculpture.

819
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:08.280
But I'm not especially soft sculpture.

820
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:11.320
So maybe you can then so that
what do we do with,

821
00:51:12.240 --> 00:51:15.800
tradition of collections of casts
and models?

822
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:19.560
I mean, every big European
Museum of Antiquities

823
00:51:19.560 --> 00:51:22.560
have collections of casts and models that,

824
00:51:24.600 --> 00:51:28.800
mainly hidden into our storerooms and,

825
00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:34.000
and this is also tradition
to, to do modern,

826
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:39.120
modern casts and to and to do more modern
models, contemporary models.

827
00:51:39.120 --> 00:51:44.400
And so could it be a way
if you have the place to do that?

828
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:47.800
I mean, this is also a question of,

829
00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:51.760
the, yes. The,

830
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:54.800
the space or, you know, the place of space

831
00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:58.560
that we have for display, to use like.

832
00:52:00.720 --> 00:52:03.320
Reproductions.

833
00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:06.480
Modern and ancient
and modern reproduction also

834
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:11.880
to present
several stages of life of often objects.

835
00:52:12.040 --> 00:52:13.760
For example,

836
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:17.880
I would say that it may be more
an exhibition thing,

837
00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:21.600
you know, more than the dominant display,

838
00:52:22.080 --> 00:52:25.600
especially in the Louvre,
because we we don't have much space.

839
00:52:26.160 --> 00:52:29.160
As everyone knows,

840
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:32.160
and we, it's a choice.

841
00:52:32.160 --> 00:52:36.200
It's a, it's a cultural discourse
and, academic discourse choice.

842
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:40.800
What do we want people to look
when they go to the museum?

843
00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:43.960
Original, artworks or,

844
00:52:45.200 --> 00:52:47.680
it's it's a it's a matter of choice.

845
00:52:47.680 --> 00:52:52.240
There are costs from the garbage
collection, which are known

846
00:52:52.240 --> 00:52:55.240
from the from one,

847
00:52:56.160 --> 00:52:58.040
one, when it comes

848
00:52:58.040 --> 00:53:01.040
out of the of the museum, you know,

849
00:53:01.080 --> 00:53:04.200
it was ordered by an Irish bishop,

850
00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:09.200
and I cannot sign them,
but I would be very interested.

851
00:53:09.240 --> 00:53:10.560
Interested integrations,

852
00:53:11.720 --> 00:53:12.520
I think.

853
00:53:12.520 --> 00:53:15.960
No, with integrations,
but 18th century integrations,

854
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:19.800
because you have to be very careful,
on those objects.

855
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:25.200
What is 18th century
in what in what is 19th century?

856
00:53:25.200 --> 00:53:26.600
What is 20th century?

857
00:53:26.600 --> 00:53:28.680
You know, it's not simple.

858
00:53:28.680 --> 00:53:33.040
In the Louvre, life of the of
the of the status is very complicated.

859
00:53:33.040 --> 00:53:36.040
Also.

860
00:53:36.080 --> 00:53:38.880
Thank you very much for your interesting
talk.

861
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:41.880
I have a question maybe to both of you.

862
00:53:43.240 --> 00:53:47.200
Sculptures
and faces are often seen as art pieces.

863
00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:51.080
So the visitors are just looking
at the objects via their beauty.

864
00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:53.560
Beautiful.

865
00:53:53.560 --> 00:53:57.920
And you are both looking
for the context of these, collections.

866
00:53:58.160 --> 00:54:01.160
And we in our museum is always discussion.

867
00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:04.480
Are the visitors really

868
00:54:04.640 --> 00:54:08.560
wanting the context
or are they just enjoying the art pieces?

869
00:54:08.840 --> 00:54:11.840
So do you have an idea how

870
00:54:12.240 --> 00:54:14.640
how do you want to bring

871
00:54:14.640 --> 00:54:17.760
the context to the visitor
in a practical way?

872
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:21.800
Because that's the that's one of the main
questions we have in our museums.

873
00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:23.640
People are

874
00:54:23.640 --> 00:54:26.640
looking at the objects
but hardly reading texts.

875
00:54:26.640 --> 00:54:28.600
Or so do you.

876
00:54:28.600 --> 00:54:31.280
Do you have an idea
or do you have some knowledge?

877
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:36.600
Maybe the advice for me
how we can put context into

878
00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:39.600
or to the art objects?

879
00:54:42.600 --> 00:54:46.680
No, no, I'm not sure that with the,

880
00:54:50.560 --> 00:54:53.560
straightforward answer to that.

881
00:54:54.680 --> 00:54:57.480
I think.

882
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:00.480
Once again, it's maybe more,

883
00:55:00.680 --> 00:55:04.280
an exhibition thing
when you can focus on one group,

884
00:55:05.080 --> 00:55:08.280
one type of material
one stage two and phase, right?

885
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:09.040
No, no.

886
00:55:09.040 --> 00:55:12.040
And, and put it with,

887
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.240
devices, especially digital.

888
00:55:16.240 --> 00:55:18.520
Digital, but not

889
00:55:18.520 --> 00:55:21.720
not only graphical design is is good,

890
00:55:22.160 --> 00:55:26.520
but in the museum is
the main question is what you said,

891
00:55:27.160 --> 00:55:29.760
what is the public looking for

892
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:32.760
by entering the museum?

893
00:55:33.280 --> 00:55:34.560
Which museum?

894
00:55:34.560 --> 00:55:36.120
We if we don't have the same public,

895
00:55:37.640 --> 00:55:39.640
in the British Museum in Leiden

896
00:55:39.640 --> 00:55:42.640
or in Paris, it's not the same public.

897
00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:48.080
We. Yeah, I'm not sure they're are looking
for context too much,

898
00:55:48.120 --> 00:55:51.120
but it can be a question for,

899
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:55.800
I won't say educating, but, fostering,

900
00:55:56.280 --> 00:56:00.000
other looks
and other, interests in the public.

901
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:04.640
And if you give some information
about that, maybe they will,

902
00:56:05.720 --> 00:56:08.720
you know.

903
00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:12.160
Formulate themselves questions

904
00:56:12.160 --> 00:56:15.960
to the other kind of, collections.

905
00:56:16.240 --> 00:56:18.880
I'm always,

906
00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:22.800
puzzled by the way we present altarpieces

907
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:26.840
from the medieval churches
or Renaissance churches in Italy,

908
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:30.000
like the Pompeii

909
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:33.000
paintings in the Louvre, which are framed.

910
00:56:33.200 --> 00:56:34.840
They are

911
00:56:34.840 --> 00:56:37.280
pictures treated like modern pictures.

912
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.280
So it's,

913
00:56:41.160 --> 00:56:44.160
it's a challenge because,

914
00:56:44.640 --> 00:56:47.400
I would say that

915
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:48.960
we don't have much space.

916
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:51.560
We don't have much attention
from the visitors.

917
00:56:51.560 --> 00:56:54.560
We cannot say everything about an object
and object here.

918
00:56:54.600 --> 00:56:56.840
If we do, it goes away.

919
00:56:56.840 --> 00:57:00.360
You know, there's a room
and we have to make choices.

920
00:57:09.200 --> 00:57:10.680
Thank you very much for your presentation.

921
00:57:10.680 --> 00:57:12.680
I really enjoy the conversation
we have now

922
00:57:12.680 --> 00:57:15.440
and this discussion
about how to display in museum.

923
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:19.280
I think also one difference
would be, Museum of Art

924
00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:23.360
or objects and also museum
in the context of the archeological site.

925
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:26.640
And I'm bouncing back
to what you were saying

926
00:57:26.640 --> 00:57:29.640
about the discussion
you had with the Italian side,

927
00:57:29.640 --> 00:57:32.160
who mentioned the fact
that they wanted to have something.

928
00:57:32.160 --> 00:57:35.720
How are you now involved in somehow, in

929
00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:40.800
some sort of museum on the sites
that could present something else saying,

930
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:42.040
that's in the Louvre,

931
00:57:42.040 --> 00:57:45.720
you have the, the objects
and all their history, because also,

932
00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:49.760
of course,
the restoration are also part of the life

933
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:52.680
of the objects
after it's out of the context.

934
00:57:52.680 --> 00:57:55.320
But on the sites
it's possible to do something else.

935
00:57:55.320 --> 00:57:58.560
So are you in somehow involved
with the Italians on

936
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:02.520
how to present this
and how to present the context sexually?

937
00:58:04.200 --> 00:58:06.480
Yes and no.

938
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:08.840
We, we are,

939
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:12.160
discussing with them
from long time about the,

940
00:58:13.040 --> 00:58:18.120
the opening to the public
of the park logico, which is no effective.

941
00:58:18.240 --> 00:58:21.360
And, they have to elaborate the,

942
00:58:21.720 --> 00:58:25.440
you know,
the museum is a mediation, on the on the

943
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:30.080
on the different spots
of the of the of the of the sites.

944
00:58:30.520 --> 00:58:33.720
And we were discussing
about the possibility to,

945
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:36.960
1 or 2 stages, copied,

946
00:58:37.640 --> 00:58:39.960
in, in 3D printing to be,

947
00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:42.960
to be simple
and put them on the site. But,

948
00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:46.800
I think it's very difficult,

949
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:51.120
from a very pragmatic point of view,
to realize that.

950
00:58:51.120 --> 00:58:54.200
And, we are already,

951
00:58:55.160 --> 00:58:58.160
it's it's not very, very,

952
00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:01.960
quick about the,

953
00:59:03.080 --> 00:59:06.880
the the, I mean, there's more
I don't know what to say in,

954
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.720
in English of
the, of the site, itself. So.

955
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:16.000
We were in discussion about that, that,

956
00:59:17.160 --> 00:59:18.080
not really anymore.

957
00:59:18.080 --> 00:59:22.120
And we have to
I have to say that the administrative,

958
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:26.280
structure changed last year.

959
00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:31.480
It was the superintendence, so direct,
state institution that now which is,

960
00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:34.760
backward Chico, which is more autonomous

961
00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:37.840
that they are taking the old,

962
00:59:38.080 --> 00:59:39.840
the old geology of the of the site.

963
00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:43.480
No. So maybe in a few months or years,

964
00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:47.040
we we may be speaking about something
like that.

965
00:59:47.520 --> 00:59:50.520
It was at the,
at the beginning of the project,

966
00:59:50.600 --> 00:59:53.400
I remember that we discussed about that.

967
00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:56.400
We four years ago.

968
00:59:56.840 --> 00:59:58.680
No, no, we don't anymore.

969
00:59:58.680 --> 01:00:01.680
But it's already,

970
01:00:03.240 --> 01:00:06.240
a big investment to, of course,
as you know very well

971
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:09.360
to undertake the excavation itself
and to organize.

972
01:00:09.720 --> 01:00:12.960
So I'm not sure that it would be possible.

973
01:00:17.520 --> 01:00:20.240
To to complete the answer of

974
01:00:20.240 --> 01:00:23.240
to your your question.

975
01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:26.560
I agree

976
01:00:26.560 --> 01:00:29.560
at, British Museum and in our department

977
01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:33.360
with a new, position that has been created

978
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:37.280
about curator of reception
of French and Mediterranean

979
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:41.040
and she developed a project

980
01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:45.680
related to audience, Jews in tracking.

981
01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:49.640
And she presented
in, in, in, in the Congress.

982
01:00:49.640 --> 01:00:54.240
It was very interesting to see that,
in fact, all the audits that are done on

983
01:00:54.240 --> 01:00:58.280
the audiences are mainly on for,

984
01:01:01.240 --> 01:01:04.400
exhibitions, not permanent exhibition.

985
01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:06.360
They mean,

986
01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:08.480
special exhibitions.

987
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:12.760
And so there is a big lack of knowing

988
01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:16.160
of knowledge about what, our own,

989
01:01:17.040 --> 01:01:22.400
audience related to archeological
or art ancient art collections

990
01:01:22.640 --> 01:01:26.040
into our permanent displays,
at least at the British Museum,

991
01:01:26.040 --> 01:01:30.880
which is I think it's also the case
for all those, big museums.

992
01:01:34.040 --> 01:01:37.040
What also
so related to special exhibitions.

993
01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:40.080
I mean, I will be not so categoric

994
01:01:40.080 --> 01:01:44.360
between the, the,
the special and the permanent exhibition.

995
01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:47.360
I think that there's a lot of things,

996
01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:51.600
both things that can be done in
that can be presented

997
01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:54.800
and that have been presented
in special exhibition

998
01:01:55.160 --> 01:01:58.200
that could be a source of knowledge

999
01:01:58.200 --> 01:02:02.440
for future permanent redisplay
because the museum has to to evolve

1000
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:07.320
and to became, in a way,
he has to stay in his permanency.

1001
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:11.280
But it has also to go
with the trend of the time.

1002
01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:17.040
And so what we propose now
in terms of digital means, in terms of a

1003
01:02:18.040 --> 01:02:20.240
new, new way of thinking is

1004
01:02:20.240 --> 01:02:23.240
very, very, very,

1005
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:26.400
also we say
not so recent programing about it.

1006
01:02:27.080 --> 01:02:29.040
So the obsolescence.

1007
01:02:34.080 --> 01:02:35.400
In the and

1008
01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:38.280
so but we can propose some,

1009
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:41.440
some we can learn from special exhibitions

1010
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.640
in order to inform our permanent
permanent ones.

1011
01:02:44.640 --> 01:02:45.360
I think so.

1012
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:49.360
And for example, for the benefit of,
that there was this wonderful

1013
01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:52.360
exhibition made by my colleague,
Vicky Donelan.

1014
01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:55.480
Leslie Fitton from the,

1015
01:02:55.680 --> 01:02:57.360
keeper of the recent Rome department.

1016
01:02:57.360 --> 01:02:59.640
And Alexandra feeling about Troy.

1017
01:02:59.640 --> 01:03:03.400
Few, few, few ten years ago.

1018
01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:06.400
I think it has been ten years.

1019
01:03:06.520 --> 01:03:09.360
And, they reconstructed.

1020
01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:12.920
They put the ceramic from Troy,

1021
01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:17.080
from the excavation of Troy
into a strategic graphic world.

1022
01:03:17.720 --> 01:03:21.840
And it was something that the audience
liked a lot because they could

1023
01:03:23.560 --> 01:03:25.240
the they could see

1024
01:03:25.240 --> 01:03:29.280
how the typologies of pottery was working

1025
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:32.760
into a stratigraphic lecture of the site.

1026
01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:36.120
It's quite complicated,
but in a way it's so visual that it works.

1027
01:03:36.520 --> 01:03:42.040
And so it's this type of ideas that maybe
are most suitable to a not political site

1028
01:03:42.040 --> 01:03:46.720
and museum of archeological site,
but that can be also type of different.

1029
01:03:46.720 --> 01:03:48.120
Also from,

1030
01:03:48.120 --> 01:03:52.800
ancient Art Museum, in order to propose
several lectures of our artifacts.

1031
01:03:56.160 --> 01:03:58.080
And only two tendered sentences.

1032
01:03:58.080 --> 01:04:01.720
But, I think it's important
that museums show

1033
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:05.080
if they want to continue doing field
work in the future.

1034
01:04:05.080 --> 01:04:07.440
And at least in the Netherlands,
that's endangered.

1035
01:04:07.440 --> 01:04:09.600
I mean, money is not.

1036
01:04:09.600 --> 01:04:11.320
Well, you know that.

1037
01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:13.560
Then we should,

1038
01:04:13.560 --> 01:04:16.560
at least in the permanent galleries, show

1039
01:04:16.600 --> 01:04:18.800
that the information comes
from the excavation, right?

1040
01:04:18.800 --> 01:04:22.160
That it's important
that museums are doing feel good.

1041
01:04:22.680 --> 01:04:28.080
So, it's not only bringing information
back to the, the,

1042
01:04:28.080 --> 01:04:32.640
the storeroom, but it's also to present
information on display.

1043
01:04:33.080 --> 01:04:36.080
So I think it's important to, to think of

1044
01:04:36.160 --> 01:04:39.640
ideas, how to show
the context of each object.

1045
01:04:39.640 --> 01:04:42.640
So even if it's an art object

1046
01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:43.800
thank you.

1047
01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:44.680
Just a quick word.

1048
01:04:44.680 --> 01:04:47.640
Because we have to say goodbye
to Marta, who has a history.

1049
01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:51.720
It's just to react to what you just said.

1050
01:04:51.720 --> 01:04:55.600
And, maybe I'm delusional as well, but the

1051
01:04:56.120 --> 01:04:59.880
the importance of showing
context, to the visitors is

1052
01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:03.560
maybe also useful to remind them

1053
01:05:03.560 --> 01:05:09.280
to show to everyone that an object
out of context has hardly any importance,

1054
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:13.440
except maybe for these and maybe Indian,

1055
01:05:13.880 --> 01:05:17.000
that we have prevent looting.

1056
01:05:17.040 --> 01:05:20.520
And I, I know I, I dream big, but,

1057
01:05:21.320 --> 01:05:24.000
do. Yes.

1058
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:27.480
But I think it's important to
to show that the object in itself is

1059
01:05:28.520 --> 01:05:32.240
good is alluring, but,
the context is everything.

1060
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:36.360
So that's part of our job
as museums to educate

1061
01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:40.200
the public as well on these matters.

1062
01:05:40.200 --> 01:05:43.320
You know, I, I totally agree, with that

1063
01:05:43.320 --> 01:05:46.320
and what you said also that,

1064
01:05:47.520 --> 01:05:49.720
once again, I think we, facing

1065
01:05:49.720 --> 01:05:54.320
very diverse situations
and for most of it, for example,

1066
01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:59.480
most of the sculpture collection in the
Louvre doesn't have any context. So,

1067
01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:03.160
there is also an

1068
01:06:03.160 --> 01:06:06.160
identity of the museum,
which is not only an idea.

1069
01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:09.400
And what we want to to tell us,

1070
01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:12.840
curators, now that there is,

1071
01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:16.920
a configuration of the collection
which were selected,

1072
01:06:18.720 --> 01:06:21.320
transformed display in a way.

1073
01:06:21.320 --> 01:06:24.320
So I perfectly agree.

1074
01:06:25.240 --> 01:06:28.240
But there are some limitations,

1075
01:06:28.560 --> 01:06:30.840
at least for the collection.

1076
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:33.880
But when we can do that,
of course it has to be,

1077
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:38.880
it has to come down to the exhibition room

1078
01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:41.920
coming into submission, of course.

1079
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:44.120
Thank you so much, Marcel.

1080
01:06:44.120 --> 01:06:47.120
And, I think we will have, direct,

1081
01:06:47.640 --> 01:06:52.400
link to the presentation of this afternoon
and maybe other insights,

1082
01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:55.800
for this, very interesting discussion.

1083
01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:57.960
So, I thank you so much.

1084
01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:00.960
I know you have your train to catch, so,
I would like,

1085
01:07:01.640 --> 01:07:04.600
thank you so much for your presentation.

1086
01:07:04.600 --> 01:07:06.840
And you are all invited

1087
01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:10.400
to, lunch, in the space.

1088
01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:12.280
We had the coffee just before.